Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 11, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Zealous hormbow 15^50 inscr

Glass Arrows
Aura Scan
I Am the strongest
Triple shot
Dual shot
Sloth Hunters shot
any 2 skills (res & w/D or TU or whatever utility U want to bring for E Management)

This build WILL kill almost anything that doesn't block or heal in 2-3 bow attacks. If any support character in your party puts GDW or any other buff on you, your triple shot WILL do 450+ when you are prepped, shouted, and level 30 foe is hexed with Asura Scan.

Test it on Master of Damage...

this is the right way to go IMO, I use something similar on my ranger but I usually go R/P for Find Their Weakness and Go For The Eyes. You don't need to spec into command much, 3 Command gets you 8 seconds of Deep Wound which is more than enough. With all of the buffs mentioned above (and instant ranged deepwound) you can pretty much insta-kill squishies.

As an added bonus, Triple Shot and Dual Shot give you some added punch when used with Splinter Weapon or GDW. Barrage is still better against many targets but Triple Shot is much better against single targets, and it still does 3 x AoE from splinter weapon.

Chthon · Feb 11, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellScreamS

erm ranger? dps? obviously you haven't tried this:

expert's dexterity
read the wind
keen arrow
needling shot
sloth hunter's shot
asuran scan
by ural's hammer
I am the strongest

marksmanship 16
expertise 12+1

gogo tons of dps...

This is the worst build posted so far. I'm not inclined to even bother with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

this is the right way to go IMO, I use something similar on my ranger but I usually go R/P for Find Their Weakness and Go For The Eyes. You don't need to spec into command much, 3 Command gets you 8 seconds of Deep Wound which is more than enough. With all of the buffs mentioned above (and instant ranged deepwound) you can pretty much insta-kill squishies.

As an added bonus, Triple Shot and Dual Shot give you some added punch when used with Splinter Weapon or GDW. Barrage is still better against many targets but Triple Shot is much better against single targets, and it still does 3 x AoE from splinter weapon.

I've already gone over (and you've ignored) this build's recharge problems.

I agree that FTW is nice on a ranger. So is GftE. But they're not game-changing.

The only interesting thing here that I want to highlight is this: "Triple Shot and Dual Shot give you some added punch when used with Splinter Weapon or GDW."

You're right that Triple/Dual add punch with GDW. That packet spam is the dominant strategy for getting DPS out of a ranger (or most anything else) was a major point from the OP, which you seem to have missed.

You're dead wrong that Triple/Dual add punch to Splinter, but it's a common misconception, so it's worth addressing. Splinter has a fixed maximum damage ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]). You can (and usually will) do less damage if you fail to have 3 adjacent foes to your target or somehow fail to make the required 4 or 5 attacks in 20 sec, but you cannot do more. Whether you burn through all of your triggers more or less quickly has no bearing on how much total damage you're going to get. Burning through all the triggers at once looks impressive because you get all the yellow numbers on screen, and it is spikier, for as much spiking is worth in PvE, but it doesn't increase the total damage one bit. You might increase "your" DPS by burning through your triggers quickly and enticing your team's rit to cast Splinter on you more frequently, but that DPS gain is an illusion. Splinter does not recharge fast enough to be maintained on the entire team, so any added DPS you achieve by drawing the rit's attention to you is offset by lost DPS for whoever didn't get Splinter cast on them because it was cast on you. It was really the rit's DPS to give out in the first place, and whom he gives it to is a zero-sum game. The only situation where burning through triggers more quickly would increase your damage would be a situation where your team had so many copies of splinter that it could be kept on everyone with 100% uptime.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 12, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I've already gone over (and you've ignored) this build's recharge problems.

I agree that FTW is nice on a ranger. So is GftE. But they're not game-changing.

The only interesting thing here that I want to highlight is this: "Triple Shot and Dual Shot give you some added punch when used with Splinter Weapon or GDW."

You're right that Triple/Dual add punch with GDW. That packet spam is the dominant strategy for getting DPS out of a ranger (or most anything else) was a major point from the OP, which you seem to have missed.

You're dead wrong that Triple/Dual add punch to Splinter, but it's a common misconception, so it's worth addressing. Splinter has a fixed maximum damage ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]). You can (and usually will) do less damage if you fail to have 3 adjacent foes to your target or somehow fail to make the required 4 or 5 attacks in 20 sec, but you cannot do more. Whether you burn through all of your triggers more or less quickly has no bearing on how much total damage you're going to get. Burning through all the triggers at once looks impressive because you get all the yellow numbers on screen, and it is spikier, for as much spiking is worth in PvE, but it doesn't increase the total damage one bit. You might increase "your" DPS by burning through your triggers quickly and enticing your team's rit to cast Splinter on you more frequently, but that DPS gain is an illusion. Splinter does not recharge fast enough to be maintained on the entire team, so any added DPS you achieve by drawing the rit's attention to you is offset by lost DPS for whoever didn't get Splinter cast on them because it was cast on you. It was really the rit's DPS to give out in the first place, and whom he gives it to is a zero-sum game. The only situation where burning through triggers more quickly would increase your damage would be a situation where your team had so many copies of splinter that it could be kept on everyone with 100% uptime.

re: recharge problems... you can carry other attack skills, or you can use cons, or you can even bring Echo for your Triple Shot. Between Triple Shot (+echoed Triple Shot), Dual Shot, and Forked Arrow or some other attack I think you'll have some attack skill in flight at all times. One thing you can't escape though is the need to fire more than one shot at once. All of the physical damage dealers in PvE gain their power from multi-hit attacks, e.g. scythes, barrage, hundred blades, whirlwind attack, death blossom. A ranger firing one shot is not good enough, no matter how strong that single shot is. The multi-hit attacks deliver multiple hits from the buffs and multiple triggers of Mark of Pain and that is the point.

spiking does matter in pve... if you spike the healer down, he's done and that's that. If you don't do enough damage he fires off WoH or Spirit Light and you get to repeat the whole process. Splinter Weapon is useful because it delivers so much mass damage that the opposing healers can't keep up with it; even if you aren't hitting them they cannot heal enough to deal with the damage that is being done to their team. Splinter weapon has no effect at all on the target you are hitting so I don't really see wth you were trying to say above about DPS.

If you don't see how delivering 3-5 shots of splinter weapon at once is better than delivering 1 shot then I don't know what to say.

Amy Awien · Feb 12, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

What (I think) he said was that splinter doesn't do more damage when fired from triple shot + dual shot as opposed to when fired through single hit skills. Splinter Weapons affects 4 (or 5) attacks, each hitting for about 40 hp to at most 3 adjacent foes. That is approximately 4 x (3 x 40) = 480 damage (or 600). A single Splinter Weapon slot can For it's contribution to the total damage your team does it doesn't matter if those 4 (or 5) sw-attacks are delivered through two skills, or 4 (or 5) regular attacks.
Splinter Weapon can be cast once every 7 seconds, on you or other members of your team doesn't matter, every cast will do it's damage.

AtomicMew · Feb 13, 2010, 07:20 AM // 07:20

DPS ranger theorycraft attempt #2: Pet for more packets?

Enraged Lunge
Zojun's Shot
Point Blank Shot
Scavenger Strike
Comfort Animal
Rampage as One
EBSoH
SY!

HellScreamS · Feb 13, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I should hear what that build has wrong in it. Hit me up!

Amy Awien · Feb 13, 2010, 09:39 AM // 09:39

I could imagine that the pet would be fighting outside the EBSoH area, but you'd have to try it out to find out.

Desert Rose · Feb 13, 2010, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Rampage as One --> Never Rampage Alone

I've tested it, if your pet stays inside the EBSoH it's about ~80 DPS against the Master of Damage.

MaaKotka · Feb 13, 2010, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellScreamS

erm ranger? dps? obviously you haven't tried this:

expert's dexterity
read the wind
keen arrow
needling shot
sloth hunter's shot
asuran scan
by ural's hammer
I am the strongest

marksmanship 16
expertise 12+1

gogo tons of dps...

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellScreamS

I should hear what that build has wrong in it. Hit me up!

There is something that came up to my mind.

expert's dexterity is a good 33% ias, but it eats your elite slot. +2 to marks doesn't increase your damage much.

read the wind is nice +damage prep, but you have more powerful options available.

keen arrow is nice when you get critical, but against high level enemies you certainly don't have guaranteed critical so you might want something more consistent instead.

needling shot is good when you get your enemy under 50%, but one miscalculation and your dps drops significantly.

sloth's hunter shot does good +damage when you get bonus damage to trigger, but monsters usually spam their skills and you can't use this skill always when you'd like to. Also it costs 10e and has long recharge so it doesn't increase your dps enough to be good skill.

asuran scan is good when you can afford it's energy cost.

by ural's hammer is nice and gets good when you can maintain it. Without allies under 50% health it has only 1/3 uptime if you have 9 or higher dwarf rank.

i am the strongest gives nice + damage and is more powerful than most of your attack skills, but it has awful recharge which makes it much less powerful than some other pve skills.

Your build can spike roughly twice in 20 second time span and even then you are missing one of your damage buffs from every second spike assuming you can somehow manage to maintain by urals hammer.

Tenebrae · Feb 13, 2010, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

expert's dexterity is a good 33% ias, but it eats your elite slot. +2 to marks doesn't increase your damage much.

read the wind is nice +damage prep, but you have more powerful options available.

keen arrow is nice when you get critical, but against high level enemies you certainly don't have guaranteed critical so you might want something more consistent instead.

needling shot is good when you get your enemy under 50%, but one miscalculation and your dps drops significantly.

sloth's hunter shot does good +damage when you get bonus damage to trigger, but monsters usually spam their skills and you can't use this skill always when you'd like to. Also it costs 10e and has long recharge so it doesn't increase your dps enough to be good skill.

asuran scan is good when you can afford it's energy cost.

by ural's hammer is nice and gets good when you can maintain it. Without allies under 50% health it has only 1/3 uptime if you have 9 or higher dwarf rank.

i am the strongest gives nice + damage and is more powerful than most of your attack skills, but it has awful recharge which makes it much less powerful than some other pve skills.

Your build can spike roughly twice in 20 second time span and even then you are missing one of your damage buffs from every second spike assuming you can somehow manage to maintain by urals hammer.

1- Expert gives 33% IAS , so if no cons are used its the best you can have outside Rapid Fire therefore yes , it makes your DPS go up and yes , those +2 marks are better than +0 marks .

2- There are no more powerful preps than Read the Wind mate , only Expert Focus matches bonus dmg and gives another effect. Those 2 preps are the ones used in turret Rangers for that matter.

3- Agree . Not a bad option but there are better ones.
4- Needling shot is another must , just requires a minimal brain use and a "decent" connection for its use.

5- Same as 3
6- Asuran Scan is a must for DPS rangers.
7- Ural is not worth a PvE slot there imo.
8- Same as 7.

For the ones thinking about dropping some points and bring a pet .... just use 3 skills max for that pet and one of them should be GDW. With asuran scan that leaves you pretty much with Prep Shot for elite slot and energy gain or Marks Wager. The last one coupled with NRA is more than enough to fill your energy when you need to ... shame of its duration.

Redvex · Feb 13, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

1- Expert gives 33% IAS , so if no cons are used its the best you can have outside Rapid Fire therefore yes , it makes your DPS go up and yes , those +2 marks are better than +0 marks .

2- There are no more powerful preps than Read the Wind mate , only Expert Focus matches bonus dmg and gives another effect. Those 2 preps are the ones used in turret Rangers for that matter.

3- Agree . Not a bad option but there are better ones.
4- Needling shot is another must , just requires a minimal brain use and a "decent" connection for its use.

5- Same as 3
6- Asuran Scan is a must for DPS rangers.
7- Ural is not worth a PvE slot there imo.
8- Same as 7.

For the ones thinking about dropping some points and bring a pet .... just use 3 skills max for that pet and one of them should be GDW. With asuran scan that leaves you pretty much with Prep Shot for elite slot and energy gain or Marks Wager. The last one coupled with NRA is more than enough to fill your energy when you need to ... shame of its duration.

I agree with you but i prefer marks wager over prep shot to spam asuran scan.

For triple dual and forked they are good but the first two have too long recharge and the second means that you are never under ench or hex that is near impossible in pve hm.

upier · Feb 13, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Instead of advancing the current discussion, I want to return to the original question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

So, you want a DPS ranger?

Despite this having no hope of ever happening, I would prefer to see changes to the game which would make Cripshot a viable elite for PvE. So no, I would prefer the ranger to continue excelling at something else than DPS and having that option be viable for PvE because simple DPS just dumbs down an insanely interesting class.

Desert Rose · Feb 13, 2010, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Despite this having no hope of ever happening, I would prefer to see changes to the game which would make Cripshot a viable elite for PvE. So no, I would prefer the ranger to continue excelling at something else than DPS and having that option be viable for PvE because simple DPS just dombs down an insanely interesting class.

I couldn't agree more.

Tenebrae · Feb 14, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Despite this having no hope of ever happening, I would prefer to see changes to the game which would make Cripshot a viable elite for PvE.

Well you could add Bleeding to match CripSlash from W but ..... i dont see the point. Is just a twice fast unblockable arrow that cripple foes .... what do you suggest to "make it viable for PvE" ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So no, I would prefer the ranger to continue excelling at something else than DPS and having that option be viable for PvE because simple DPS just dumbs down an insanely interesting class.

Beautiful words but sadly so far from reality. Dont think its gonna happen , at this point , is not worth the time and or effort to do it. For the record , i dont think marksmanship needs to be touched but Wilderness Survival ? dear god .... spirits and traps ?. ANYTHING will be fine to buff those skills but the same problem remains , not worth the time and or effort at this point of the game , sad but true.

Chthon · Feb 14, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellScreamS

erm ranger? dps? obviously you haven't tried this:

expert's dexterity
read the wind
keen arrow
needling shot
sloth hunter's shot
asuran scan
by ural's hammer
I am the strongest

marksmanship 16
expertise 12+1

gogo tons of dps...

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellScreamS

I should hear what that build has wrong in it. Hit me up!

That's a good attitude. MaaKotka pretty much covered it, but I'll give it another go.

0. For purposes of this thread, we're temporarily setting aside the issue that other classes can do far, far more damage than that. Still, your first post had a tone like you didn't get that.

1. Assuming proper party buffs and decent-sized mobs, Barrage is going to blow that build away. Re-read the OP to see why.

2. Keen and Sloth both have bad recharges and unreliable conditional damage. (Keen b/c inflated monster levels pull your crit chance down; Sloth b/c monster AI likes to spam skills and HM recharge bonus helps them spam. There's ways to make them more reliable (GftE + Keen, chain Savage+Sloth), but this build doesn't do that.)

3. BuH and IAtS both have bad recharges/uptimes. EBSoH is a better buff than either of them.

4. SY! should probably get a PvE slot rather than use a buff with a bad recharge/uptime.

5. RtW is not particularly great. Expert's Focus has a very similar damage progression, with an additional e-management function. Glass Arrows has a much better damage progression if you're willing to spend your elite to get it. And, of course, Barrage requires no prep, and beats out turret builds generally.

6. Expert Dexterity is always a questionable skill. It's really not worthy of its elite status (IAS which you could get elsewhere, plus a very weak damage buff), so there's usually a better elite available. While ranger IAS options do suck, Frenzy is available, and dropping down to 25% IAS is usually worth the trade for a better elite.

7. Your build has no e-management at all. Just eyeballing it, I think it's probably got energy problems. At least it will if you try to aggressively Scan and Needle.

---------------------------------

On a different topic. It looks like Penetrating/Sundering got a stealth change. As best I can tell, the PvE versions are now 1/4 activation + 1/2 aftercast (with aftercast unaffected by IAS). I haven't put any heavy thought into it, but I *think* that leaves them roughly on par with their old versions.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 14, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What (I think) he said was that splinter doesn't do more damage when fired from triple shot + dual shot as opposed to when fired through single hit skills. Splinter Weapons affects 4 (or 5) attacks, each hitting for about 40 hp to at most 3 adjacent foes. That is approximately 4 x (3 x 40) = 480 damage (or 600). A single Splinter Weapon slot can For it's contribution to the total damage your team does it doesn't matter if those 4 (or 5) sw-attacks are delivered through two skills, or 4 (or 5) regular attacks.
Splinter Weapon can be cast once every 7 seconds, on you or other members of your team doesn't matter, every cast will do it's damage.

Hmmm okay. Here's the simple math... double shot and triple shot (at max rank) shoot arrows that do 25% less damage but each arrow still delivers its full load of buffs. This means that double shot is doing 150% of normal arrow damage plus twice the damage from whatever buffs you have. Triple shot is doing 225% of normal arrow damage plus three times the buff damage. There is no other bow attack, none, that can compare with that. If you add in AoE damage from splinter weapon it just gets more rude because it delivers multiple AoE hits at once. Other weapon spells like GDW, Brutal Weapon, Nightmare Weapon will also deliver multiple hits with triple shot and dual shot so you can stack the damage way up high.

Barrage and Volley may turn out better if you can count on always hitting multiple targets, but against single targets triple shot and double shot are the way to go. Obviously this is a PvE analysis though, you'll want to be using dual shot and pointblank/zojuns/sundering/penetrating/etc. for the PvP turret ranger.

Chthon is right about the recharge, 10 seconds is a long time. It would be better if these attacks were more spammable but I really don't see any better option for damage. I'd take Triple Shot and Dual Shot and one or two additional bow attacks that are high damage, quick activating and quick recharge, that way you always have an attack skill to throw.

re: splinter weapon, it certainly DOES matter if you can deliver all of its hits at once. This spikes the enemy team and may kill some of them before they can be healed. If you only deliver one splinter AoE per arrow you are giving the enemy more time to heal, more time to block, more time to kill you or someone in your team. Time compression is always good for your team, deliver all your damage up front if you can instead of dragging it out.

Ugh · Feb 14, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well you could add Bleeding to match CripSlash from W but ..... i dont see the point. Is just a twice fast unblockable arrow that cripple foes .... what do you suggest to "make it viable for PvE" ?

I belive upier wanted a change to PvE rather than a change to Cripshot.

It would be great if PvE was less "blow shit up as fast as you can" and more like PvP. Hopefully it will be better in GW2.

maxxfury · Feb 14, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Sighh.....i would love to see a pve were the unique attributes of each class (mes- edenial, Ranger-rituals as examples) were actually of some use and solidly warranted a slot in a general party! As it stands at the moment thats basically a big fat lol.

Tho alas i dont see that day

(( so we kind of have to hope that the classes are gonna be balanced around how the game currently is and put them on a somewhat equal footing..ironically as it stands at the moment thats also basically a big fat lol.

upier · Feb 14, 2010, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

I belive upier wanted a change to PvE rather than a change to Cripshot.

Aye, it's the same thing I argued in the mesmer thread.
Stuff like 200 DPS from a single party member in a game where foes have 500 or 600 HP just needs to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

It would be great if PvE was less "blow shit up as fast as you can" and more like PvP. Hopefully it will be better in GW2.

I have serious doubts about this happening in GW2.
What I am arguing would be possible because GW is a team game. If the ranger would be a decent addition to the party by crippling and interrupting foes - you still need party members that would actually kill that foe.
But GW2 seems to be more of a single player game - which means if you'll want those 10 beaver pelts, you alone will need to kill those beavers. Which means every guy will need to have access to sufficient damage dealing options. Or are you really going to kill beavers by slowly degening them with the GW2 version of Apply Poison/Cripshot or are you going to simply bring the GW2 version of Barrage and kill a whole group of foes in a few shots?
What we know of GW2 is a concern for those of use that enjoyed the unique snowflake aspect of GW.

HellScreamS · Feb 14, 2010, 12:00 PM // 12:00

I pretty much used that build in a vq, being doubtful in its efficiency, and it worked just fine. Constructive criticism works just fine for me, I thought I'd throw that build for you. I usually use the r/p spear chucker beastmaster build